Posts by drew sagan

65

Class Suit Against the Watchtower -- Anyone?

by Dogaradodya in

jw
friends

i'm inviting former jws to file a class suit against the watchtower for psychological, sociological, physical, intellectual, biological and financial damages.

a. psychological damage:.

1. followers are made to believe that the christian bible is the sole and exclusive word of god.

drew sagan

I believe you will find that all this abuse falls under the concept of "freedom of religion."

I actually think it's a bit deeper than that. I would say all of this abuse falls under the concept of "freedom of unimportant religious minorities".

The Jehovah's Witnesses faith is based upon the cornerstone assumption that they will always be a minority. If a majority of the population ever became JW's it would be an extreme threat to the stability of any country and would end up being restricted much more heavily by the government (especially in the case of disfellowshipping).

As long as the JWs continue to be a minority their pracitces are not perceived to be a threat to sociey in general and are therefore ignored.

12

JWD scholars, I need a bit of help finding something ...

by AuldSoul in

does anyone know where i can find reprints of the "resolutions" that comprise the "scorpion stings" and the "trumpet blasts" of revelation as explained in the revelation climax book?.

i have lately become very curious about the contents of these resolutions and proclaimations, since the wts currently praises the bible students for publishing and distributing these "scathing denunciations".. i bet they are just filled with false prophecies, too.

my idea is to show the resolutions in question and ask: even if the "trumpet blasts" really are divine judgment messages, would outstandingly bold false predictions reasonably be any part of these divine judgment messages?.

drew sagan

Good Job Atlantis!!!

By using such rhetoric the Watchtower essentially brings it's history into the realm of myth. Facts or objectivity are not important. What is important is to see the history of the movement in an abnormal, miraculous, and exciting. The major thrust of the myth is that the divine (god, jehovah, jesus) has transended it's normal state of exsistance and has historically enetered into the life of the group.

12

JWD scholars, I need a bit of help finding something ...

by AuldSoul in

does anyone know where i can find reprints of the "resolutions" that comprise the "scorpion stings" and the "trumpet blasts" of revelation as explained in the revelation climax book?.

i have lately become very curious about the contents of these resolutions and proclaimations, since the wts currently praises the bible students for publishing and distributing these "scathing denunciations".. i bet they are just filled with false prophecies, too.

my idea is to show the resolutions in question and ask: even if the "trumpet blasts" really are divine judgment messages, would outstandingly bold false predictions reasonably be any part of these divine judgment messages?.

drew sagan

There is usually a little bit of confusion regarding the Watchtowers interpretation of the trumpet blasts. They do not teach that the resolutions are the trumpet blasts per se. They instead say that the resolutions are the outcome of the angel in heaven blowing the trumpet. Not a big differance, but I figured I would say it.

Here is a list of what convention's resolution is said as being a result of the trumpet blasts.

-----

1. Cedar Point Ohio, 9/10/1922
2. Los Angeles, CA 8/18-26/1923
3. Columbus Ohio 7/20-27/1924
4. Indianapolis, Indiana 8/29/1925
5. London, England 5/25-31/1926
6. Toronto, Canada 7/24/1927
7. Detroit, Michigan 7/30 - 8-6/1928

-----

Going back into the literature may provide some more detailed info on this stuff, but my guess is that most of it is only known by going into the resources that only exist at WT headquarters.

I'll look back in my collection of old WT literature to see if I can find anything and post in a little bit.

23

Are scriptures missing from the Bible?

by tika in

i have heard that the bible as we know it today is not in it's entirety.

i feel that this is deceptive and had people argue that the present day bible is how god intended us to read it because that is all we need/ it is presented how he wants us to have it.

i don't buy that and feel that god wouldn't "hide" any of the holy scriptures as men have done.

drew sagan

There are many books that never made it into an official list of Biblicial canon.

early Christian Writings

13

WAS NOAH'S FLOOD CAUSED BY A METEORITE?

by badboy in

jw
friends

there is evidence in the form of a lake drained by saddam hussein that a meteorite hit southern iraq about 2,000bc causing a big flood.

drew sagan

On a rescent archaeological excursion me and a companion where able to salvage a few interesting pieces of the ark.

pieces of the ark

29

Destroy any JW's faith that they are the only true religion in 5 easy steps

by Must obey! in

try this on the next jw you meet:.

1. ask the jw what religious group jesus selected in 1919 to be his faithful and discreet slave organisation?

the jw will answer: "pastor russell & the bible students"good!!.

drew sagan

No it won't work with every JW Drewsagan but it will work with some because it certainly has worked on some JW's I've used it on. After reasoning with one of my friends on all this he went away and did some research on the internet about the history of the organisatioin and is now inactive.

I don't doubt that you're reasoning worked per se, I just highly doubt that it worked based on its own interior logic. When an individual leaves a group like the JWs they are in a place where they are questioning their own commitment to the group. The more a person has questioned and thought about their own commitments will have an effect upon the way they respond to challenges about their beliefs. Personal experience in the group is another way that people are worn down and become more open to an examination of the group.

Any success you may have had with this reasoning is limited to all of the other factors that influenced that person. Saying that there is an "easy 5 step" process is to ignore all of these other uncontrollable forces.

No matter how much a JW denies it, most of their faith in the Watchtower is built upon emotions. They argue all the time that what they are doing is completely logicial, but their actions show they are making decisions on a wide variety of emtions including pride, fear, hope and more. Because their emotions are involved, rational thought will only ever work if the person has already set such emtions aside.

39

Unexplained Mormon "miracles"...Unexplained JW "miracles"

by FormerMormon in

jw
friends

ok... lets get the ribbing aside.

our mormon "miracles" are more unexplainable than yours.... one of the many tools used by the morg to keep it's members active is the use of faith promoting stories involving apparent miracles... or the unexplainable.

there are unexplainable stories even in my own family.

drew sagan

In the Jehovah's Witness community, many such stories take on the form of urban legends. Just as the story you related dealt with a miraculous event during a LDS sponsored activity, so also do JWs tell stories of such things during WTS sponsored activities (such as their door to door work).

One major differance though would be the way they describe their interaction with the divine. JWs will typcially never say they "saw" something. Demons and devils are usually either heard, or sometimes felt. Objects moving around on there own sometimes is claimed. If they believe miracles happen on their behalf, it is more likely a story where coincidence is king (e.g. recieving money right by chance just when they needed it, meeting people door to door when the other person is praying to God for help).

Since JWs have a strict theology that teaches them the dead are unconscious they usually see such things as talking with the dead "foolish".

14

How much of the bible....

by bite me in

i think this is the perfect time and chance to see how much of the bible jw's really get through over the year.

i'd like for whoever can post the verses that were covered each time.

and if possible the length of time spent on that verse.

drew sagan

What are you talking about? A little clarification please...

29

Destroy any JW's faith that they are the only true religion in 5 easy steps

by Must obey! in

try this on the next jw you meet:.

1. ask the jw what religious group jesus selected in 1919 to be his faithful and discreet slave organisation?

the jw will answer: "pastor russell & the bible students"good!!.

drew sagan

If they want to hark on about Rutherford's reasons for branding the fallen away Bible Students as "evil slaves" then that leaves prime opportunity for you to analyse Rutherford's reasons and ask how could it be that tens of thousands of Bible Students, who the Society says were all anointed in 1919, suddenly turn from being the only approved Christians on planet earth into "evil slaves" in 15 short years or so. A reasonable minded JW (which most of my relatives and friends have been, thank goodness) can see this can seem rather unreasonable. Point out that if Russell had lived for a few more years and Rutherford had taken control, then Russell would undoubtedly have been one who would have left along with all the other tens of thousands of Bible Students? If the JW doesn't agree with this hypothetical proposition, then pull out some quotes of Russells was opposed to highly centralised control and the entire concept of "organisation", so he would have been opposed to Rutherford's new strict control and increasing ruthlessness. If you produce the exact quotes of Russell on this to make it clear that Russell would have been disturbed at the new direction Rutherford was taking.

The Watchtower teaches that the "evil slave" was allready at work before 1918, but that in that year they finally where designated as such. Anybody that would have left the Watchtower as left by Rutherford (and yes there where many) would still have been put in the catagory of evil slave.

In the context of Watchtower thinking the membership is never as important as the leadership. I think this is what you are forgetting. Just like Ray Franz points out in one of his books (can't remember which one) whenever the JW membership hears "Faithful and Discreet Slave" they do not think of all the anointed people on the earth (what's left of the 144,000). Instead they think of the magazines and books that come from the authority in Brooklyn. While thinking of it in terms of the remnant 144,000 is more accurate when it comes to their theolgoy, it is what it means in terms of authority that the adverage JW really understands.

They simply don't view all those people as being collectivly selected. The Watchtower has had it's cake and eaten it too with this concept for quite a while. I certainly don't think showing it to a JW is part of 5 easy steps that can "destroy their faith"

29

Destroy any JW's faith that they are the only true religion in 5 easy steps

by Must obey! in

try this on the next jw you meet:.

1. ask the jw what religious group jesus selected in 1919 to be his faithful and discreet slave organisation?

the jw will answer: "pastor russell & the bible students"good!!.

drew sagan

Sorry, but the Watchtower already has answers that put this type of reasoning out of comission.

The Watchtower stresses not just that the 'Bible Students' in general where selected by God in 1918/1919, but that the administration of J.F. Rutherford and those that followed where the ones that where chosen. Those who did not follow the directino of Rutherford and broke off into other BIble Student movements where the 'evil slave'. If a group of people left the Rutherford run Bible Students between 1918-1920's they would still be considered apostate and 'evil slave' because they did not stick faithfully to "Jehovah's Organization" and those in charge. The books and magazines have been very clear on this.

This reasoning is riding on a loophole that isn't there.